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21 comments

1 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 8:16:54am

I can’t for the life of me find a justification for the war in Iraq. The only reasons to ever attack another country are in retaliation for a recent attack or an imminent and overwhelming threat of danger. Neither of these were present there, and attempts at ‘political and social engineering’ through military force are akin to killing a patient to kill a virus limited to its host.

2 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 8:17:38am

[dupe post removed]

3 rosiee  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 9:37:01am

America needed to flex it’s muscles, and in the long run it was a good thing.

4 Joanne  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 9:50:18am

re: #3 rosiee

America needed to flex it’s muscles, and in the long run it was a good thing.

Really? In what respect, Charlie? Iraq is a complete clusterfuck. What was the “good thing” you’re talking about?

5 122 Year Old Obama  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 10:26:19am

re: #4 Joanne

Really? In what respect, Charlie? Iraq is a complete clusterfuck. What was the “good thing” you’re talking about?

‘MURCA, FUCK YEAH, that’s what!!!11ty

6 Locker  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 10:30:36am

Of course they knew there were no weapons. Just a convenient cover:

rawstory.com

7 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 10:45:35am

I agree with Gwynne Dyer. The Iraq War was specifically intended to bring an end of international law and start a Pax Americana.

Thank Christ it failed. It’s a horror though, all who had to die because of ‘conservative’ hubris.

8 Political Atheist  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 11:44:01am

re: #6 Locker


Why is there no mention of Saddams campaign to make his neighbors think he still had these weapons?

Among Saddam’s revelations:
fbi.gov

Saddam misled the world into believing that he had weapons of mass destruction in the months leading up to the war because he feared another invasion by Iran, but he did fully intend to rebuild his WMD program.

9 Destro  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 12:02:22pm

re: #7 Romantic Heretic

I agree with Gwynne Dyer. The Iraq War was specifically intended to bring an end of international law and start a Pax Americana.

Thank Christ it failed. It’s a horror though, all who had to die because of ‘conservative’ hubris.

If I could give you a million pluses for reading Gwynne Dyer I would.

10 Destro  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 12:46:36pm

re: #8 Political Atheist

Why is there no mention of Saddams campaign to make his neighbors think he still had these weapons?

Among Saddam’s revelations:
[Link: www.fbi.gov…]

The problem is America’s response to the Saddam has WMD claim (if that was the real reason for going to war).

11 Joanne  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 3:40:45pm

re: #10 Destro

The problem is America’s response to the Saddam has WMD claim (if that was the real reason for going to war).

Exactly. North Korea is saying they have nukes and are trying to hit our left coast. Will we nuke them a la The Bush Doctrine?

12 EPR-radar  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 6:34:20pm

re: #1 SidewaysQuark

I can’t for the life of me find a justification for the war in Iraq. The only reasons to ever attack another country are in retaliation for a recent attack or an imminent and overwhelming threat of danger. Neither of these were present there, and attempts at ‘political and social engineering’ through military force are akin to killing a patient to kill a virus limited to its host.

IMO, the best case that could be made for the war in Iraq is that in a post 9/11 world, the kinds of games Saddam Hussein was playing with the inspectors and whether or not he had WMDs were not acceptable.

Even if this premise is accepted, it gives at most a 51%-49% case for war, and can’t be reduced to a sound byte.

So, the Bush administration made out the threat of Iraqi WMDs to be much more definite and concrete than it really was. To put it bluntly, the Bush administration lied through its teeth about the severity of the threat. All downhill from there, at the cost of too many wounds and lives all around.

13 Gus  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 7:36:05pm

I think the Kurds would probably disagree. Yes, a mistake when one considers the reasoning of WMDs and involvement with 9/11. The Baath regime was carrying out a slow, yet deliberate genocide of the Kurdish people. It was officially oppressive to the Shia people. It had invaded Kuwait. There was a constant threat of a re-escalation of tension between Iraq and Iran. It was, regardless of the 9/11 falsity, a state supporter of international terrorism. He had led an perpetrated the Al-Anfal Campaign which led to the deaths of 182,000 Kurds.

There was the campaign against the Marsh Arabs reduced the number Marsh Arabs from 250,000 to approximately 30,000. His resistance to cave on the sanctions led to the death of 100,000 to 270,000 children. They attacked Israel with Scud missiles and constantly threatened the state of Israel. The Iran-Iraq war led to the deaths of close to 300,000. He tortured, maimed, and brutalized his people. The Baathists made the Iranian regime look like tame in comparison. Yes, perhaps it was a mistake considering the circumstances and reasoning. But the world has rid itself of one terrible boil.

14 Gus  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 7:37:48pm

USATODAY.com - Iraqis pour out tales of Saddam’s torture chambers
2003

BAGHDAD — Pictures of dead Iraqis, with their necks slashed, their eyes gouged out and their genitals blackened, fill a bookshelf. Jail cells, with dried blood on the floor and rusted shackles bolted to the walls, line the corridors. And the screams of what could be imprisoned men in an underground detention center echo through air shafts and sewer pipes.

“This is the place where Saddam made people disappear,” said an Iraqi soldier named Iyad Hussein, 37, describing Iraq’s Military Intelligence Directorate in the northwestern suburb of Kadimiya. “It is a chamber of death.”

The secrets of Saddam Hussein’s reign of terror are beginning to emerge. Iraqi civilians who had longed feared speaking out about the alleged atrocities for fear of government retribution are revealing in detail what the Iraqi dictator and his regime inflicted on some of the country’s 26 million people…

15 Gus  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 7:42:25pm
16 Gus  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 7:52:06pm
17 Gus  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 7:53:01pm
18 Gus  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 7:53:51pm
19 Gus  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 7:58:42pm

re: #7 Romantic Heretic

I agree with Gwynne Dyer. The Iraq War was specifically intended to bring an end of international law and start a Pax Americana.

Thank Christ it failed. It’s a horror though, all who had to die because of ‘conservative’ hubris.

American defeat in Iraq is only a matter of time, but how long it takes matters a lot. The fate of Iraq is a sideshow, the terrorist threat is a red herring, and the radical Islamists’ dream of a worldwide jihad against the West is a fantasy, but the attempt to revive Pax Americana is real. No matter what the outcome of the election in November, 2004, the enterprise is likely to continue. It is bound to fail eventually, but we need it to fail soon.

20 stabby  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 12:43:31am

re: #7 Romantic Heretic

I remember Gwynne Dyer from long before 9/11.

But I disagree. International law as it applies to war was toothless and stupid before the Iraq war and it’s toothless and stupid now, thank heaven. There’s nothing there to root for, and no power behind it anyway.

International law is just something for the less powerful to whine about.

21 stabby  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 12:46:00am

The only law that should count is the law that legitimate liberal democracies make for themselves. Law that represent the actual will of actual people.

Only individuals have rights and only individuals have will and opinions.

Once you get more abstract than that, when you talk about the “rights” of imaginary entities, “will of the people” which, say, only means the edict of a despot, you’ve lost you way. Countries don’t have rights, individual people do.


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